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  • Results 1 to 10 of 10
    1. #1
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      Capitalism, Crapitalism, and Idiots



      @Kamina!; don't mistake Capitalism for the USA's Crony Capitalism (Crapitalism, or as this guy calls it, Corporatism). Also half of the reason why the USA's economy is going to shit, with its laws that choke small businesses and saves dying 'big' companies from failure. Crapitalism and Keynesian Economics: suicidal emo friends to the end.
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    2. #2
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      I'm only a National Socialist when it comes to two basic rights: education and health. When it comes to our top-notch health care system, I'm glad we have more in common with Cuba than with other countries. Socialism in Spain is a thing. Third political force, and they recently got tons of seats in the Parliament despite of the conservative victory. What I find scary is that Pablo Iglesias, Spanish alter ego of Bernie Sanders, wants to impose a Venezuelan model of government here, which could lead to scarcity of food, repression and a nightmarish police state. We struggled a lot to become a semidecent country after the war and these people want to ruin everything again. We're safe for now, but you don't even know how influential they are. They took over our Media in few months, and now they want our Parliament too. They talk about corruption, but they're corrupted too. You burgers should bomb us for oil and freedums if they ever get in charge. I'd totally welcome the invasion. Podemos is the political party why we can't have nice things.

      Commies will never get over the fact that they lost the Spanish Civil War. They're basically plotting a revenge in the form of a revolution. The last time the less bad guys won the war because the Axis arrived in time to save our sorry asses, but I don't know if we'll be so lucky this time if they keep gaining power. What kind of economic model will we have in the future? If they win, sure we can say adios to Capitalism in Spain. I know Capitalism has its flaws, but I agree with you that is actually a pretty decent system except when Capitalism leads to an excessive liberalization of goods and services crippling the State. A middle term between both is what I'd seek for. I couldn't defend pure Capitalism either, but I prefer it over a Socialist dictatorship. I like Capitalism with sensible restrictions to avoid ruining good public systems, but that's all. The disappearance of Capitalism where I live is a very real possibility, and by far the worst thing that could happen to us very soon, which is the main reason why it always worries me so much, because not all of my countrymen seem to understand the potential danger we face nowadays. Precisely an attempt to abolish Capitalism along with the 1929 crisis is what killed our second republic provoking the worst war we've ever suffered followed by 40 years of francoist rule. Even today we're divided and scarred about what happened, more or less like your civil war dividing your own society but way worse and more deeply. We need stability to keep growing and reducing our high unemployment (it's already decreasing), not weird political experiments that can turn us into an actual third World country again. Podemos is a party that has gained a lot of popularity in no time because they massively promise welfare and free everything for everyone, but I don't want their dirty money because I feel it's a trap. I don't trust these people at all.

      I'd rather have good'ol Capitalism instead, OP.
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    3. #3
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      Quote Originally Posted by Antiracist Hitler View Post
      I'm only a National Socialist when it comes to two basic rights: education and health. When it comes to our top-notch health care system, I'm glad we have more in common with Cuba than with other countries. Socialism in Spain is a thing. Third political force, and they recently got tons of seats in the Parliament despite of the conservative victory. What I find scary is that Pablo Iglesias, Spanish alter ego of Bernie Sanders, wants to impose a Venezuelan model of government here, which could lead to scarcity of food, repression and a nightmarish police state. We struggled a lot to become a semidecent country after the war and these people want to ruin everything again. We're safe for now, but you don't even know how influential they are. They took over our Media in few months, and now they want our Parliament too. They talk about corruption, but they're corrupted too. You burgers should bomb us for oil and freedums if they ever get in charge. I'd totally welcome the invasion. Podemos is the political party why we can't have nice things.

      Commies will never get over the fact that they lost the Spanish Civil War. They're basically plotting a revenge in the form of a revolution. The last time the less bad guys won the war because the Axis arrived in time to save our sorry asses, but I don't know if we'll be so lucky this time if they keep gaining power. What kind of economic model will we have in the future? If they win, sure we can say adios to Capitalism in Spain. I know Capitalism has its flaws, but I agree with you that is actually a pretty decent system except when Capitalism leads to an excessive liberalization of goods and services crippling the State. A middle term between both is what I'd seek for. I couldn't defend pure Capitalism either, but I prefer it over a Socialist dictatorship. I like Capitalism with sensible restrictions to avoid ruining good public systems, but that's all. The disappearance of Capitalism where I live is a very real possibility, and by far the worst thing that could happen to us very soon, which is the main reason why it always worries me so much, because not all of my countrymen seem to understand the potential danger we face nowadays. Precisely an attempt to abolish Capitalism along with the 1929 crisis is what killed our second republic provoking the worst war we've ever suffered followed by 40 years of francoist rule. Even today we're divided and scarred about what happened, more or less like your civil war dividing your own society but way worse and more deeply. We need stability to keep growing and reducing our high unemployment (it's already decreasing), not weird political experiments that can turn us into an actual third World country again. Podemos is a party that has gained a lot of popularity in no time because they massively promise welfare and free everything for everyone, but I don't want their dirty money because I feel it's a trap. I don't trust these people at all.

      I'd rather have good'ol Capitalism instead, OP.
      Well, I'd agree on education, I think nearly everyone believes that that's a right (though, you can still apply some capitalist ideas to make schools compete, that's been shown to improve education standards). Health? Ehh, maybe for minors, to some degree... But the problem is, where do you draw the line? Does health include food, shelter, etc etc? Besides, my experiences with government Healthcare have been slow as fuck. It took @goddamn shit castle king!; almost a fucking year to get his surgery for his leg. I doubt Obama could do healthcare much better.
      But yeah, press F for Spain, gone Socialist too soon. Run while you can, m8.

    4. #4
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      I'm aware there are many forms of capitalism. US used to be an anarch capitalist country until we got more regulations. Then more government somehow led to crony capitalism with giant corporations to steal from people. That's a kleptocracy. They steal our taxes and waste it on things we didn't vote for. What's happening to ranches is a good example of crony capitalism. They get bribed and the government tries to make ranch owners go bankrupt by turning off water wells or having them arrested for stupid reasons so they can install an uranium plant.

      It's funny he uses ShoeOnHead's thumbnail. She's poking fun at all the Marxists.

      Last edited by Kamina!; 01-14-2016 at 06:09 PM.
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    5. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by Asgore View Post
      @Kamina!; don't mistake Capitalism for the USA's Crony Capitalism (Crapitalism, or as this guy calls it, Corporatism). Also half of the reason why the USA's economy is going to shit, with its laws that choke small businesses and saves dying 'big' companies from failure. Crapitalism and Keynesian Economics: suicidal emo friends to the end.

      Well when it comes to bringing up the US and Capitalism the reasoning is the same as those who bring up Communism and the USSR. The classic rebuttle is to say "oh but thats not real [ideology/religion/bestpone*]" which of course is rather unsatisfying. A proper rebuttle requires you to demonstrate that things like the US or the USSR are not an inevitable outcome of either which is kind of a thread in itself.



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    6. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by Silver Shill View Post
      Well when it comes to bringing up the US and Capitalism the reasoning is the same as those who bring up Communism and the USSR. The classic rebuttle is to say "oh but thats not real [ideology/religion/bestpone*]" which of course is rather unsatisfying. A proper rebuttle requires you to demonstrate that things like the US or the USSR are not an inevitable outcome of either which is kind of a thread in itself.



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      Except that that is a rather stupid argument, in and of itself. Can you name even one civilization, government, etc. that didn't undergo entropy into a worse system or process at some point? If you can, it would be one that was quickly destroyed by a neighbor. It's the natural order of things for systems to eventually decay, and shitty systems are always an inevitable outcome over hundreds of years. The really important measurements of success are how successful the ideology is, and how quickly it decays into its shitty eventuality. Where true Capitalism brings great prosperity and creates super powers for hundreds of years at a time, Communism always bring starvation, poverty, and is quickly used to create a tyranny for one of or a group of its leaders. The difference in entropy length is between decades for Communism, and centuries for Capitalism.

    7. #7
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      I'm not quite sure whether to be interested in this thread or comment on how stupid it is to discuss/debate such a fruitless topic. I'll just sit here and wait for a while.
       

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      Quote Originally Posted by Asgore View Post
      Except that that is a rather stupid argument, in and of itself. Can you name even one civilization, government, etc. that didn't undergo entropy into a worse system or process at some point? If you can, it would be one that was quickly destroyed by a neighbor. It's the natural order of things for systems to eventually decay, and shitty systems are always an inevitable outcome over hundreds of years. The really important measurements of success are how successful the ideology is, and how quickly it decays into its shitty eventuality. Where true Capitalism brings great prosperity and creates super powers for hundreds of years at a time, Communism always bring starvation, poverty, and is quickly used to create a tyranny for one of or a group of its leaders. The difference in entropy length is between decades for Communism, and centuries for Capitalism.
      I agree full when that an ideology that flowed from a certain time, condition and thoughts will inevitably collapse or have to change as things change and it is no longer suited or as well adapted - akin to how animals that evolved specific traits to deal with conditions such as the ice age underwent the same process.

      Now when it comes to your second point socialists whether they wear red, black or brown shirts are of the opinion that capitalism has reached the point where it is no longer adapted to the existing conditions and needs to either be changed/adapted (the view of reformists and moderate libertarians) or replaced (the view of revolutionaries).

      Just as you believe that communism will *always* bring those aforementioned conditions so to do radicals believe that at this current stage of development global capitalism will *always* rapidly revert to the corporatism we've seen pop up over the last 50 years.

      In the same way I think its unreasonable for anarchists to want an exact repeat of what happened in Spain in their countries I equally view people who think that the Capitalism of the post war boom America is something that can be emulated in modern conditions as unreasonable.
       

    9. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by Silver Shill View Post
      I agree full when that an ideology that flowed from a certain time, condition and thoughts will inevitably collapse or have to change as things change and it is no longer suited or as well adapted - akin to how animals that evolved specific traits to deal with conditions such as the ice age underwent the same process.

      Now when it comes to your second point socialists whether they wear red, black or brown shirts are of the opinion that capitalism has reached the point where it is no longer adapted to the existing conditions and needs to either be changed/adapted (the view of reformists and moderate libertarians) or replaced (the view of revolutionaries).

      Just as you believe that communism will *always* bring those aforementioned conditions so to do radicals believe that at this current stage of development global capitalism will *always* rapidly revert to the corporatism we've seen pop up over the last 50 years.

      In the same way I think its unreasonable for anarchists to want an exact repeat of what happened in Spain in their countries I equally view people who think that the Capitalism of the post war boom America is something that can be emulated in modern conditions as unreasonable.
      You seem to think that corporatism is some sort of new development, which is a completely wrong understanding of economic history. Crapitalism has been around longer than what I call 'true capitalism,' really, though it went under the name of 'mercantilism' in Medieval times. The big guilds always vied for favors from the lords and kings of the areas they operated in, while small tradesman had to operate and sell in secret if they didn't pay the outrageous guild dues. Not unlike big business vs small business today at all.
      You could argue that economies of scale means you can't start a competitive business without having a lot of money, but that has nothing to do with government's role in things, just that you need a lot of capital to produce at the same cost level, and that's hardly a problem with Capitalism's system. Monopolies, as long as they are not artificially enforced by governments, are not a problem. If the market is large enough, there will always be a Pepsi that arises to compete with Coke, unless the government stops them. Businesses that aren't sustainable will fail, rather than being bailed out.

      All this to say, if you're thinking of Capitalism as in Keynesian Economics, which says the government has to step in in all the wrong ways, sure, of course it will fail. But Austrian Economics, 'true capitalism' has and will work for long periods at a time. Global market or not, modern conditions or not, really doesn't matter.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Asgore View Post
      You seem to think that corporatism is some sort of new development, which is a completely wrong understanding of economic history. Crapitalism has been around longer than what I call 'true capitalism,' really, though it went under the name of 'mercantilism' in Medieval times. The big guilds always vied for favors from the lords and kings of the areas they operated in, while small tradesman had to operate and sell in secret if they didn't pay the outrageous guild dues. Not unlike big business vs small business today at all.
      You could argue that economies of scale means you can't start a competitive business without having a lot of money, but that has nothing to do with government's role in things, just that you need a lot of capital to produce at the same cost level, and that's hardly a problem with Capitalism's system. Monopolies, as long as they are not artificially enforced by governments, are not a problem. If the market is large enough, there will always be a Pepsi that arises to compete with Coke, unless the government stops them. Businesses that aren't sustainable will fail, rather than being bailed out.

      All this to say, if you're thinking of Capitalism as in Keynesian Economics, which says the government has to step in in all the wrong ways, sure, of course it will fail. But Austrian Economics, 'true capitalism' has and will work for long periods at a time. Global market or not, modern conditions or not, really doesn't matter.

      I haven't and not implying that commercial interests influencing political ones is something new or otherwise unique to the capitalism of our times in my post. What I am saying there though is that Capitalism has been in a constant state of change and flux since its emergence to where it is now.

      The status quo is a result of a huge web of factors that go beyond mere philosophical ones. There is no economic vacuum. The way political power is distributed and the state of technology has an entwined relationship. This why we start seeing some very interesting correlations throughout history, hence we notice that the more a nations wealth is derived from trade the more democratic it its whilst the more rural and agricultural the more authoritarian/aristocratic it is (hence why nations such as Venice, the Hanseatic League and Novgorod were republics whilst nations like Russia/Moskova, Sicily and Saudi Arabia were/are monarchies). Its for this reason that the last strongholds of monarchies tended to be in nations who were insular and who derived wealth from land alone.

      For a very simmilar reason its why the welfare state emerged not in the more democratic UK, Belgium, US or even France but in the highly autocratic state of Prussia as the latter found itself more imperilled by socialists.

      The significance of all this? Well to demonstrate that conditions do play an important role in the shape capitalism has and why we need to tailor our economic system to suit the modern environment. The problem I find with schools of thought such as the Austrians (though I do confess my knowledge of thier school and what makes it distinct from things like the Chicago Schoolers and other libertarians is rather dim) is their failure to adequate address these issues created by political power and technology.

      For instance in current times governments prop up corporations not because they think it will be better but for political expediency which is something that unfortunately works come election time. Likewise in a global system a libertarian style economy can be undercut and subverted by State supported ones in other countries. Two prime examples of this is the currency manipulation done by China which has allowed its exports to be dispratoriantly more competitive than countries with a floating exchange rate. The other is the agricultural sector, countries with strong subsidized sectors are able to completely blitz relatively free agricultural sectors in developing countries.

      Were a country to transition to a libertarian system unilaterally it seems like it would be torn apart by protectionist countries who buy up state and other assets whilst engaging in dumping.

      PS. Which periods in history do you hold to be the examples of Austrian style capitalism success?

      PPS. For the sake of clarity can it be said that we are in agreement on the best pone issue?

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